{ The List } Units

[Tall_Walt]

Originally posted by La Diva
{lajzar & Tall_Walt} "Age of Steam" - It has always seemed a huge leap from galleons to transports. A missing link unit under steam power makes a lot of sense.

I tend to agree, but eras get mushed together in the broad sweep of Civ. A "Steamship" transport could be before the modern "Transport", between "Ironclads" and "Battleships". Ironclads running around with sail transports is accurate, though not quite galleons. The trouble is a "Steamship" unit is based on the same tech as an Ironclad, just evolved: no real breakthrough allows it, just a bunch of incremental improvements and cost reductions.

I definitely agree that a modern transport running with Ironclads and Battleships looks odd. One thought is bring in "Steamship" in the Industrial Age, needing coal or oil; then in the Modern Age, make "Assault Ship" be the result of Amphibious Warfare instead of the Marines unit. Assault Ships can take more units, incuding Helicopters and VTOL aircraft.

[La Diva]

Originally posted by Tall_Walt
Raiding the huts needs a tactical unit since you may be in combat, but does all exploration? Civ doesn't model every single person, and people wander and explore all by themselves--just not to Lewis & Clark or Beagle distances. So what if, similar to the cultural aura around your civ, you had an exploration/reconnaisance aura, depending on transportaion technology? This would explore and lift the fog of war, even into nearby enemy territory. Any interaction with what was revealed would be by unit.

Nothing would preclude mounting long range explorations or reconnaisances like Lewis & Clark.

The Explor/Recon Aura is intriguing, but it would depend on how fast it spread and whether any research or City Imp would speed it up.

.. The biggest problem with this concept is discovering goody huts in the unveiling but having no unit in the vicinity to take advantage of them. If you "open" the huts automatically as the fog is lifted, there's no unit risk when hoardes are encountered, so the game becomes more predictable. And since the other civs' auras are similarly expanding, you'd have access to fewer huts. The way the game works now, I've snatched the goodies from huts within two tiles of another civ's city just because they headed in a different direction. I'd lose all of those. A good portion of "aura exploration" would be spent on oceans, something my ships do now while they're waiting to pick up the exploring units after they've unfogged that continent.

.. The idea of "identical" huts for every civ to discover as their aura expands comes to mind, but that removes the motivation (and much of the civ trait) for expansion and exploration. How can you preserve the advantage of being the first to find the huts? "Going the extra mile" really means something the way this works now, unless I'm off base about how AI handles exploration for the other civs.

.. I'm prejudiced here, I admit it, because I use this feature aggressively. In most games, I'll get 6-12 free tech advances, plus units, tons of cash, and the occasional settler or city.

.. Any brainstorming to keep the same advantages with less work would be fine with me.

... over 7200 exploration moves to see the whole board.

That's why I use MANY exploring units and favor having faster ships (higher MP).

The game I've played most and longest is MOO2. The reason is that it's so sleak I can play a fully detailed game in a few hours, dipping into micromanagement only in the cases that need it.

To some extent I agree with you, but new ideas (paradigms) are needed in Civ4.

Maybe I should check out MOO2 and see what you mean. Spending days on a single C3 game does wear thin. My only foray away from straight Civ was ToT, which apparently hasn't stood the Test of Time since it doesn't have its own forum.

If you actually had to build and move the caravans, the trade deal would expire before you got the route built!

That's my point about goody huts and an E/R Aura. By the time you get there with a unit, some other civ will have beaten you to it.

.. As for trade, my point was to use the physical unit to initiate deals that AI won't allow now. There is no deal until the caravan reaches the target civ who was beyond the reach of Diplomatic Trade. Then once the initial contact is made, if the civ opens up (with roads/harbor), trade is handled through the Trade screen like usual.


This is good dialogue. I hope it helps F'Axis decide how to proceed.

[La Diva]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Explorers are military units, like any scout. In fact, the only way they are ever used in C3 is as pillagers. The world is usually very explored by the time you get explorers, anyway.

I disagree. Explorers can't attack and have no defense points - nothing military about them in this game. Maybe your explorers pillage (what a harsh term if you mean raiding goody huts), but I think the original intent is the way I use them, to dispel the Black Fog. And maybe your world is very explored by the time you get explorers, but mine never is. The benefits of finding other civs quickly and grabbing every goody hut I can find can put me several centuries ahead tech-wise in the early ages.

{Hot Air Balloons} ... 1) Hopefully air units will retain the same mission-oriented system as in C3

2) This is a lot of complex stuff to implement for a relatively niche unit. You might as well just use explorers to scout.

Well, it seemed like a fun idea at the time. I'm not the only one to suggest the unit, just the first to flesh out some of its characteristics. As long as we're dreaming of brave new worlds, why not dream big? I've mentioned some units that have no real interest to me, just for the sake of expanding the box -

:vomit: @ future tech

- units like those.

{double agents} ... It already exists, it's called the Espionage screen.

Have I missed something? Spies "exist" via the Espionage screen, but I haven't seen any double agent betrayals going on, AFAK. I just thought the risk would add another layer of intrigue for those who like that sort of thing.

Either simply reveal the whole map with Satellites, or allow building of an air unit that has infinite range, zero interception chance, and can do recon missions.

Clicking or keying an infinite-range unit all the way across the globe sounds less simple for the human player than asking for a report about a certain civ. I guess this all depends on whether you're thinking about micromanaging the play or programming the game.

.. What's visible to my eye on that map differs from what the spy satellite would be able to detect - the only way I can look inside a foreign city now is to pay for espionage, which may or may not yield anything of value. The satellite would handle it without the additional cost.

.. "infinite range, zero interception chance, and can do recon missions" - gee, sounds like a Spy Satellite to me . . .

{Flavor Units} ... It's not that difficult to remember the bonuses. And you can right-click on a unit to see it's stats.

Maybe if you play all the time, you can remember which units defend more effectively against mounted units, for example, but I'd flunk the test. You start adding dozens more units with unique-to-civ names, and you'll have a lot more players complaining than just me.

{Age of Steam} ... missing link unit ... It's called an Ironclad.

The Ironclad can't carry units. We need a steam transport with increased capacity and MP, midway between Galleon and Transport.

{Airlift Plane} ... It's called an airport

Cute, but not the same. I'm not passionate enough about the unit to fight for it. IMO, the Airport model is seriously flawed. Watch for my post on the City Improvements in the next few days, soon as I can get to it. Somewhere (maybe Movement, Supply, etc.) I wrote about the need for the boxwing (biplane?) aircraft as a precursor to the warplanes, a plane that could carry a single unit and land on any grassland and plains tile or in cities with a cheap Airstrip Improvement.

.. The reason for these early air units is primarily for their higher MP. The Balloon would explore faster, and the Boxwing would get a unit to the other end of the continent faster. Can I live without 'em? Sure, but they'd be mighty convenient.

[La Diva]

Originally posted by Tall_Walt
The trouble is a "Steamship" unit is based on the same tech as an Ironclad, just evolved: no real breakthrough allows it, just a bunch of incremental improvements and cost reductions.

The Tech Steam Power would cover the breakthrough for me. If there has to be a delay, let AI add it to the Build List maybe 20 turns after the Ironclad appears.

[lajzar]

I dopn't see teh need for a "steamship" transport. Steam was never really used for long distance ocean transport - it was only used for river transport and military applications. Of course, there was a contemporary of the ironclad used for transport - the clipper. But this was a sailship, not a steam ship. The clipper is teh missing unit between transports and galleons.

of course, if you can point me to a historical case of a mainstream ocean steam transport, I am all ears.

[ScipioX]

Steam transports were pretty much riverboats used to carry troops in the ACW. They weren't used on the open seas. Sail transports were more common, because they were usually commandeered civilan ships.
I like the idea of scout/explorer units. Moving them around gives you something to do in the early game.
And the race for goody huts is important, too.
I always thought that Flight should give you Biplane and blimp units, Advanced Flight Fighters and Bombers, and Jet Engines Jet Fighters and Bombers. Maybe some weak Helicopter unit at AF and a stronger Gunship at JE? And Stealth tech gives you Stealth planes.

[Tall_Walt]

A mainstream ocean steam transport? I'll give you two:

1. The Great Western, 1838-1856, but this is a very early example, so it's not entirely manistream simply because it's an early example. Because wind was free and coal cost money, the transition from sail was slow.

http://www.greatoceanliners.net/greatwestern.html

Later, completely mainstream, examples are at:

http://www.greatoceanliners.net/shipindex.html

2. USS Nimitz, CVN-68 , 1975-2025 (est.)

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/cvn-68.htm

The point of mentioning Nimitz is that steamships don't run on steam, they just use steam, created by burning wood, coal, oil, or uranium; converted to mechanical movement by pistons or turbines; and put into water by paddles or screws.

[Tall_Walt]

BTW, with regard to the American Civil War, the trouble with using it as a benchmark is that it was not a trans-oceanic war. I believe most ironclads and monitors were used on the Mississippi and its tributaries, and if not there, up and down the coast. That's a very different environment from open ocean, especially the North Atlantic. Remember "The Perfect Storm"?

The problem is that an early oceangoing ironclad like HMS Warrior is going to look just like a sailing ship because steam endurance wasn't enough for long deployments where you had to cross, fight, and return. Indeed, it's warships more than transports that had trouble with the transition, since transports just had to do a one way passage before refueling.

http://www.hmswarrior.org/

So it's actually the ironclad (of the type shown in Civ) that's not oceangoing.

[Tall_Walt]

Originally posted by La Diva


The Explor/Recon Aura is intriguing, but it would depend on how fast it spread and whether any research or City Imp would speed it up.

.. The biggest problem with this concept is discovering goody huts in the unveiling but having no unit in the vicinity to take advantage of them. ...

Actually, given the more active barbarians starting in Civ3, it could get interesting. Suppose you see the hut, but as you're doing other things, the hut evolves and expands, perhaps even becoming a computer player?


More, though, I wanted to expand on the aura bit. The Civ 3 culture aura seems a strange idea. I find it odd that culture in the first thing that occurred to them.

Transportation range is an important concept in looking at history. The Roman or British empires were able to stay so big because of effective transportation of goods and troops. Civ3 has a city radius expand from 9 tiles to 21 tiles based on culture. I think it ought to expand when horses are domesticated and keep on expanding throughout the game because of technological developments: horses, the wheel, Roman roads, stage coaches, trolleys, cars. A new city in late game wouldn't start full size, but it would expand pretty quickly as the workers installed the infrastruction. Cities would engulf each other, and the player would decide which one(s) to keep and which would get folded into metropolises. This would keep the number of cities you need to manage pretty constant through the game.

Another important concept is communication range., which early on is pretty equivalent to transportation range, though smoke signals, signal fires, and heliographs (reflecting sun off a mirror) are early exceptions. If we assume every civilization is going to have traders, travellers, hunters, and various other people wandering away from their cities, then a ruler will hear what's going on around his empire. He could also fund rangers, who originally were, well, out on the range, the outer range of know territory.

I think it's important, if only for computational and display reasons, to get away from representing amorphous operations as distinct units. This has aways been done by Civ in cities: you buy temples, not priests; marketplaces, not merchants. Civ3 represents culture this way: you don't have individual bards or bands wandering the map spreading culture. Similarly, the cloud of explorers surrounding a civilization shouldn't be represented as one unit that can only be in one place, but as a gradual lifting of the fog. (And possibly as a contraction of the fog if you don't keep it funded.)

The same applies to city development and workers.

[Tall_Walt]

Originally posted by La Diva


.. I'm prejudiced here, I admit it, because I use this feature aggressively. In most games, I'll get 6-12 free tech advances, plus units, tons of cash, and the occasional settler or city.

.. Any brainstorming to keep the same advantages with less work would be fine with me.

Well, you wouldn't just want the tech, units, and cash to appear at random, I expect.

... over 7200 exploration moves to see the whole board.

That's why I use MANY exploring units and favor having faster ships (higher MP).

If you're doing exploration manually, the number of units and their MP doesn't matter because you're still pressing a key for each move.

If you're exploring automatically, it still matters because the screen shows each unit making each move.

One solution is to show exploration only in very low detail on the world map, unless something significant is found, a hut, a resource, an enemy.

Maybe I should check out MOO2 and see what you mean. Spending days on a single C3 game does wear thin. My only foray away from straight Civ was ToT, which apparently hasn't stood the Test of Time since it doesn't have its own forum.

You may not like it because exploration is rather high level: you don't find things smaller than planets. However, it has some excellent ways to manage things "off screen" without units.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by La Diva
I disagree. Explorers can't attack and have no defense points - nothing military about them in this game.

A/D has nothing to do with whether or not it's a "military" unit. They server a primarily military purpose - scouting enemy territory, and pillaging tile improvements. Even simple exploration is partly military.

Maybe your explorers pillage (what a harsh term if you mean raiding goody huts),

No, I mean tile improvements.

but I think the original intent is the way I use them, to dispel the Black Fog.

Sure, I can see that, except that by the time you get explorers there IS no black fog. Hence, they are a MILITARY unit (by their stats, not by the intent of the designers).

And maybe your world is very explored by the time you get explorers, but mine never is.

What are you playing, 360x360 60% water with 2 civs?

Well, it seemed like a fun idea at the time.

"Fun ideas at the time" can very easily kill a game. Look at CtP - full of fun ideas, but in the end, crap because the "fun ideas" simply don't function in a civ-type game.

I'm not the only one to suggest the unit, just the first to flesh out some of its characteristics.

That the unit has been suggested before does not make it a better idea.

As long as we're dreaming of brave new worlds, why not dream big?

See above re: fun ideas.

I've mentioned some units that have no real interest to me, just for the sake of expanding the box -

:vomit: @ future tech

- units like those.

The prosecution rests, your honor.

pq[Have I missed something? Spies "exist" via the Espionage screen, but I haven't seen any double agent betrayals going on, AFAK. I just thought the risk would add another layer of intrigue for those who like that sort of thing.[/q]

If you're talking about a unit on the ground, that's what I was responding to. Creating a "double agent" is the sort of thing that happens behind the scenes in the espionage screen - unless you want to completely remake the espionage system to be a major, player-involved part of the game, it's out of place.

Clicking or keying an infinite-range unit all the way across the globe sounds less simple for the human player than asking for a report about a certain civ. I guess this all depends on whether you're thinking about micromanaging the play or programming the game.

I don't think you understand what I mean by "infinite range" - I mean it can do the recon mission into any tile on the map, not that it has infinite move points.

.. What's visible to my eye on that map differs from what the spy satellite would be able to detect - the only way I can look inside a foreign city now is to pay for espionage, which may or may not yield anything of value. The satellite would handle it without the additional cost.

Put it in as part of the recon mission. A plane can see anything a satellite can.

Maybe if you play all the time, you can remember which units defend more effectively against mounted units, for example, but I'd flunk the test. You start adding dozens more units with unique-to-civ names, and you'll have a lot more players complaining than just me.

No units defend more effectively against mounted units, it's simple A/D values. You can find those out by right-clicking on a unit. And in fact, I don't play "all the time" - I don't play often at all. Each UU has generally a bonus point to one stat. It's not complicated.

The Ironclad can't carry units. We need a steam transport with increased capacity and MP, midway between Galleon and Transport.

You didn't say that before, IIRC.

Cute, but not the same.

Actually, it is. The Airport is modelling at the city-improvement level of transport planes.

[DarkCloud]

great work lajzar!

[La Diva]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
What are you playing, 360x360 60% water with 2 civs?

Nope, I haven't used anything but the largest map size for at least three years, in either Civ2 or C3, and my landmass is usually the middle choice, so I don't get as many continental neighbors but don't get stuck settling a floating postage stamp.
.. My fewest civ count was 6; my largest, I think, 9 - with that many, I have less room for expansion without wiping out civs, which I abhor. I won one game by total annihilation, and it depressed me for a week. Yeah, it's just a game, but it felt like I'd wiped out whole species instead of fictional nations.

That the unit has been suggested before does not make it a better idea.

You're entitled to your opinion, as am I.

"double agent" ... behind the scenes in the espionage screen - unless you want to completely remake the espionage system to be a major, player-involved part of the game, it's out of place.

A little intrigue can go a long way to breathe new life into what might otherwise be a hackneyed reincarnation of C3.

I don't think you understand what I mean by "infinite range" - I mean it can do the recon mission into any tile on the map, not that it has infinite move points. ... A plane can see anything a satellite can.

If I understand your explanation, your way is still player-intensive. I don't want to click a single tile as the target recon for a single plane. I'm suggesting a pre-digested report with most/all of what's going on, rather than having to manually "case the joint." That shouldn't be too hard to AI to handle.
.. My other point about the Spy Satellite is that it would include observation abilities that the current planes don't have, to detect City Imps under construction and to observe troop movements that are now fogged out. A recon plane showing data after AI's move would mean I would have to have made the same recon mission on the previous move and remembered what was on each square at that time - I'd rather get the condensed report, thank you, to leave it to my "subordinates" who hand me the important information.

No units defend more effectively against mounted units, it's simple A/D values.

Maybe it is only A/D, but according to Civ'pedia, the Pikeman "is an excellent defender, especially against mounted units." I thought I remembered the manual going into more detail in that regard, but that book is incognito at the moment, so I can't confirm.

The Airport is modelling at the city-improvement level of transport planes.

However, the Airport can transport only one unit per turn, not at all like a ship. Not only that, but you must have an Airport at both termini, which means your significant cost doubles before you can even use the Improvement; plus, you can't Airlift eight tanks and mechanized infantry into enemy territory in a single turn. No, not the same at all, sir.

[La Diva]

Note: At the risk of triggering another wave of "turn workers into AI processes" replies, I'm posting additional thoughts about improving the Worker unit, assuming Firaxis keeps it. I've heard the complaints, so save your strength for more important rebuttals, okay?


Workers should attain Veteran status (not just tech advance upgrades). After completing 10 of the same kind of project (build road / irrigate / mine) they become experts and can finish the work in 1/3 less time.
.. This ties in with other posters who want Specialists. This way, the unit specializes In the Field rather than being produced on the City Screen with a special intent.
.. Any Specialist, then, who is assigned to a different kind of work (miner sent to build roads) will revert to the completion length of new workers, and might even take longer since they’d have an Attitude about doing another kind of work.
.. After a University is built in a city, any worker produced can become a Specialist immediately (finished a degree in that field), though it makes sense to still have some experience factor needed to reach optimum speed (3 projects instead of 10).
.. Multiple specialties should also be possible, so that a worker could be faster in roads, railroads, and pollution, e.g., or specialize in foresting and jungle reclamation.


I really miss Civ2's advanced engineers being able to enter an unimproved tile and start to work in the same turn. Using 30 or more engineers to build several tiles of roads and railroads in a single turn was stellar. It let me move my troops to defend an unconnected new city on a moment's notice.


Worker Specialists versus CityRadius Specialists:
In a crunch, pulling a citizen off a city tile to become a specialist is fine, but if you need him for more than a few turns to fix the problem, spend the shields to build a new Worker and assign him that task. Any city map citizen reassigned to specialize for more than, say, 10 turns will become unhappy, working at a job s/he doesn't like, and your problems worsen. You can also import a worker from another location to become that specialist for that city, showing as a garrisoned unit with no other work assigned (Rt-Click shows the special task), thus returning your citizen to CRadius employment. If that imported worker is a native of another city, benefits decrease by 20% for the first 10 turns, until s/he becomes familiar with the new city. (Captured workers aren't smart choices - see below). This means either keep your workers close to home or provide an Advisor chart with more census information available (number of workers produced and still living, current location and project, and turns to complete task, Age (what year unit created) which might affect experience/efficiency, number of units captured and by whom, number of units you've captured and from whom, etc.)


Foreign workers captured: needs some help, too. We should be able to "send them to school," let them reside without assigning other tasks, for a specified number of turns in order to acclimate them to our culture. After that time, their work efficiency would improve by 50% over capture level. Another phase of graduate school turns would raise them to native worker level of output (might also mean they had accepted their lot and had become citizens). However, another war with their civ or with civs predominantly of their religion might decrease that efficiency level again, or by chance even sway them to become spies/terrorists. Your Advisor would have a 50-75% chance of keeping tabs on their movements (to sneak into cities and spy or carry out terrorist attack, to bribe military units, etc.), depending on the size, government, and happy/culture factors currently in place.


I would LOVE to stop micro-managing my game, but every time I've turned my workers loose, they've started irrigating everything in sight! I need to be able to tell AI how I want my city squares developed (focus first on shield production, then science/trade, while keeping only one or two extra wheat sheafs per turn whenever possible) and then simply review the work every few turns. Or tell them to make a road or railroad between two cities and let them have at it. That would make for a much less cumbersome, more quickly played game.

lajzar: ... if minutemen were more or less advanced than riflemen?

You, and/or Firaxis, may want to check out a site like: http://www.historylives.com/citizensoldiers.htm for more information along this armament evolution.

=====

Comments on other quotes:

"Military units created in cities with foreign citizens might become of foreign nationality, and might not be as patriotic."
- This has merit and has parallel examples here on earth.

"... maybe the inca units travel along mountains as if they were grasslands."
- If that's put into place, then other specific-terrain civs would have similar advantages. But do we want to get that detailed? If that would be true, then units could die of thirst crossing the deserts, or die of cold in the tundra, not just by sailing too far from shore in a galley.
.. Certainly if this is put into Civ IV, the effects will fade as technology improves.

"... the navy is where the time being out of synch really rears its head (and could stand to be tinkered with)!"
- I agree! It seems that with every ship advancement (galley to caravel to galleon, etc.) at least one additional movement point should be added, until say 7 is reached (not counting Wonder bonuses) - there are some speed limitations, after all, and oceans are meant to take time to cross.

[La Diva]

Other unit-related issues:

Here's a pet peeve no one has mentioned: A worker has spent 14 turns of the 18 required to build a mountain road. I need him for an emergency. I should be able to send him back and resume project without starting from scratch. Yes, manhours should be lost, but keep it more realistic, like 50% at most. Even clearing a jungle, which starts to grow back while the worker is elsewhere, shouldn't lose all the effort put into it to date unless the worker doesn't return promptly. One turn's work is lost every two turns the incomplete project is left unattended, plus 25-33% loss of the remainder. Example: worker returns to work on the 14-turn mountain road after 6 turns. 14 - 6/2 = 11, minus 3 (25%, always rounded up) equals 8 turns completed, 10 to go to complete the road.


sending armament and/or military advisors to another civ to help them - that might then affect their enemy's desire to declare war on us, if they found out.


marcthornton, thread 104088:
"... select multiple workers or military personnel ..."
- yes, use the standard Ctl-Click method to select units in different locations (with ability to reposition map between selection clicks, probably with edge-of-screen scrolling or minimap clicking), then give a single order, including GoTo whatever tile (not necessarily a city).


alva, thread 104285
"The one negative from this is of course worker management ... Any ideas on how to solve this?"
- Why can't we stack worker orders like we stack City Production orders? Either a button or a menu feature to click a tile (GoTo), click an Order, click another tile, click an Order - you get the idea - then click the button/feature again to Implement, which would get the unit started and move focus to the next unit. - You still micromanage, but less often per unit.


bisonbison, quoted in lajzar's first post, this thread
Exclusive First-Discovery claim to units
- Not at all logical, since once the unit is observed and/or captured, any other civ can imitate it, and has done so, given enough time - just look at how many countries know how to make nuclear weapons now.


Tall_Walt, thread 118880
"... age of sail ... infantry fights in a boarding action. The winner gets both ships."
- I like that, much better than one ship getting sunk with all units on board.


"... maybe the inca units travel along mountains as if they were grasslands."
- If that's put into place, then other specific-terrain civs would have similar advantages. But do we want to get that detailed? If that would be true, then units could die of thirst crossing the deserts, or die of cold in the tundra, not just by sailing too far from shore in a galley.
.. If this becomes a part of Civ4, these MP bonuses must fade as technology improves.